LCD projection lamp life

[tony]

I may regret what I have done. I recently purchased a Sony 42" LCD rear
projection TV. Nice set but The salesman did not tell me that the lamp
might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12 hours a
day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year in lamp costs.
Is this a reasonable entertainment assumption ?

Also, is it wise to just shut down using the cable box as the controller,
or should I also turn off the TV ????

Thanx for your help

Tony

[pistor]

Post by tony
might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12 hours a
day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year in lamp costs.
Is this a reasonable entertainment assumption ?

You watch TV 12 hours a day?

Victor

[Dave Gower]

Post by pistor
You watch TV 12 hours a day?

He has a perfect right to watch as much TV as he wants. You got nothing
better to do than tell others how to run their lives?

Pathetic.

[Kyle Rodgers]

Holy crap, you can't even question people any more without some pissant
jumping all over you. Obviously has plenty of experience with his fat ass in
front of the boob tube for 20 hr stretches shoveling Doritos into his maw.

Post by Dave Gower

Post by pistor
You watch TV 12 hours a day?

He has a perfect right to watch as much TV as he wants. You got nothing
better to do than tell others how to run their lives?
Pathetic.

[bmoag]

That is a low rating for a projection TV lamp and also a very low cost for
replacement.
Have you checked with Sony?

[ZVR]

Post by bmoag
That is a low rating for a projection TV lamp

Not true, that is the average actually.

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by ZVR

Post by bmoag
That is a low rating for a projection TV lamp

Not true, that is the average actually.

The idea of an average rating for a projection lamp is not very meaningful.
Individual lamps are rated by the OEM and the manufacturer of the set for
some average life expectance, but these ratings vary greatly, from 1000
hours to 8000 hours. It is difficult to discuss the matter without some
context such as the specific set or lamp.

Also, your post is even less useful, since it does not even include the
context of what average rating the previous poster was suggesting.

Leonard

[ZVR]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The idea of an average rating for a projection lamp is not very
meaningful. Individual lamps are rated by the OEM and the manufacturer of
the set for some average life expectance, but these ratings vary greatly,
from 1000 hours to 8000 hours. It is difficult to discuss the matter
without some context such as the specific set or lamp.

I'm sorry, but that is exactly what "average" numbers are used for. If 90%
of the lamps being manufactured on Earth have a lifespan of 2000 hrs, 2%
have a lifespan of 8000 hrs, and 8% have a lifespan of 5000 hrs, you can
safely say that the average life expectancy of a lamp (WITHOUT getting into
particulars) is 0.9 * 2000 + 0.02 * 8000 + 0.08 * 5000 = 2360 hrs. This is
how statistics are built by the way. If you dwell into the details like
specific set or lamp, you are narrowing it down so much that the term
"average" makes no sense anymore - you are then talking about manufacturing
tolerance for that particular make/model, which is a totally different
issue.

By the way those numbers above are just an example but consistent with what
I hear from other people; I heard lots of complaints about lamps being done
or very low in brightness after only 1500-2500 hrs, and very few claims of
people getting more than 4000 hrs out of their lamp. I mean, heck, even if
you run a search in this newsgroup - see what kind of numbers others are
posting. Of course there will always be manufacturers with better products,
better lamps etc but that doesn't mean they are "average"

[ZVR]

And to further clarify the issue:
http://tv.about.com/od/dlp/a/DLPprojlamp.htm

Not saying that about.com should be taken as the world's biggest authority,
just proving that there's others that think the same (about average
lifespans of projection lamps, that is - see the "How long does a DLP
projection lamp usually last?" section).

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by ZVR
http://tv.about.com/od/dlp/a/DLPprojlamp.htm
Not saying that about.com should be taken as the world's biggest
authority, just proving that there's others that think the same (about
average lifespans of projection lamps, that is - see the "How long does a
DLP projection lamp usually last?" section).

The real value in that article is the statement that no one really knows.
The life of these lamps varies so greatly, and with no good field statistics
available, we really don't know. I can say from our experience selling and
servicing these products for years now, that problems seem to come in
spurts, and seem to be exagerated by those who have problems. Those that do
not never squeak. I have noticed that the products that use the Osram lamps
seem to have less early lamp failure than those using the Philips lamps. We
have not had enough of the longer life rated lamps in the field for long
enough to know if they are meeting the manufacturers' expectations, but so
far, we are changing a lot fewer lamps in the Mitsubishi and Sony products
rated for at least 4000 hours than we used to in the units with lamp ratings
of 1000-2000 hours.

My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps have
been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them unexpectedly.

Leonard

[Sam Spade]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps have
been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them unexpectedly.

The set manufacturers are disinclined to provide consumers with expected
bulb life expectacy, which invokes less than full confidence on the part
of the consumer. And, for the consumer to have to learn on a forum like
this, rather than from a Sony, et al, that an UPS is a very good idea
with a DLP set, is another example of "have a nice day, now go away, we
have your money."

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps
have been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them
unexpectedly.

The set manufacturers are disinclined to provide consumers with expected
bulb life expectacy, which invokes less than full confidence on the part
of the consumer. And, for the consumer to have to learn on a forum like
this, rather than from a Sony, et al, that an UPS is a very good idea with
a DLP set, is another example of "have a nice day, now go away, we have
your money."

The manufacturers seem to be more than happy to discuss the matter. Sony
has estimated lamp life at between 6000 and 8000 hours to half-brightness
for some of their sets. Mitsubishi has set the lamp timer for replacement
at 4000 hours. Yamaha has rated the lamps in some of their projectors as
low as 1000 hours, even though the OEM rates them much higher. Other
manufacturers have varying estimates, depending on the rating from the OEM
for a particular lamp, how high their standard for output is, and how
conservative they are (like Yamaha). It is true that many consumers have
had lamps fail before these numbers of hours. I suspected from the start
that the Sony numbers were optimistic, and at least for many, this has been
the case. Others may get that many hours.

There was a period of time when, in particular, Sony and Samsung were having
large numbers of failures with the Philips lamps. Others, like Runco and
Hitachi, seem to have had similar bad batches of lamps and Philips made
supplies that had very high failure rates. Since there are only two OEMs
that make most of the lamps, the manufacturers are limited in terms of how
much control they have over the matter. The results have varied greatly.
As a dealer, we happened to have missed the worst of the Sony porblems and
have had clients experience virtually no problems with lamps. The
Mitsubishi sets have been very good as well, in our experience.

The manufacturers will all tell you the same things. The numbers are
averages. Lamps will produce less light as they age and may become erratic
in output or have the output drop dramatically just before they fail. Lamp
life is affected adversely by numerous start cycles, as well as the number
of hours run. Intermittent power can significantly shorten the life of a
lamp. Frequent restarts will do the same. A UPS is useful in areas where
frequent outages occur because it limits the number of start cycles. Unlike
what many will tell you, it has little to do with not running the fan cool
down. Nearly all sets now have timers or temperature protection to keep a
hot lamp from being started. Slowing the cool-down by killing the fan has
no effect. Tthe reason that they run the fans after the lamp is down is to
allow a quicker restart. Tech reps at Panasonic, Sony, & Mitsubishi have
confirmed this. They all say the same thing...a UPS is OK but not needed
unless there are frequent outages.

The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.

Leonard

[Matthew L. Martin]

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps
have been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them
unexpectedly.

The set manufacturers are disinclined to provide consumers with expected
bulb life expectacy, which invokes less than full confidence on the part
of the consumer. And, for the consumer to have to learn on a forum like
this, rather than from a Sony, et al, that an UPS is a very good idea with
a DLP set, is another example of "have a nice day, now go away, we have
your money."

Excellent information snipped.

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.

Reinforced by a few people who, after having a lamp fail earlier than
they would like, attempt to extrapolate their experience to all people.
Well, them and the conspiracy theorists.

Matthew

[Sam Spade]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
Leonard

My owner's handbook for my Sony DLP says nothing about lamp life or
power protection.

The Sony web site is silent, too.

So, where do you get them to tell you all this?

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
Leonard

My owner's handbook for my Sony DLP says nothing about lamp life or power
protection.
The Sony web site is silent, too.
So, where do you get them to tell you all this?

Sony Tech reps. The number 8000 hours has shown up in a number of places.
Adds for the xl-2100 replacement lamp even show it. As I said, I think that
those numbers are optimistic, but I have not seen anything in the sets that
we have sold to suggest that is the case...just speculation.

Leonard

[Sam Spade]

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
Leonard

My owner's handbook for my Sony DLP says nothing about lamp life or power
protection.
The Sony web site is silent, too.
So, where do you get them to tell you all this?

Sony Tech reps. The number 8000 hours has shown up in a number of places.
Adds for the xl-2100 replacement lamp even show it. As I said, I think that
those numbers are optimistic, but I have not seen anything in the sets that
we have sold to suggest that is the case...just speculation.
Leonard

I don't mean to be argumentative, but Sony tech reps are not part of the
normal resource for consumers to do their homework. Primarily, that
would be the specifications and owner's handbook. It isn't the sales
person's responsibility, and more than I expect a car salesman to know
much of anything. It's the OEM's responsibility.

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Leonard Caillouet
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the
clueless and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their
homework.
Leonard

My owner's handbook for my Sony DLP says nothing about lamp life or power
protection.
The Sony web site is silent, too.
So, where do you get them to tell you all this?

Sony Tech reps. The number 8000 hours has shown up in a number of
places. Adds for the xl-2100 replacement lamp even show it. As I said, I
think that those numbers are optimistic, but I have not seen anything in
the sets that we have sold to suggest that is the case...just
speculation.
Leonard

I don't mean to be argumentative, but Sony tech reps are not part of the
normal resource for consumers to do their homework. Primarily, that would
be the specifications and owner's handbook. It isn't the sales person's
responsibility, and more than I expect a car salesman to know much of
anything. It's the OEM's responsibility.

Not trying to argue. I agree. What I differed with was the assumption that
they don't want to discuss it. I have experienced differently, both with
tech reps and manufacturer's sales reps. The fact that they don't
communicate the info well has more to do with the disconnect between tech
people and sales than anything else. Most Sony sales reps are nothing more
than clerks on the phone, for instance. It is more a matter of ineptitude
and the say business is done with CE products being more of a box moving
venture than a sales issue. Salesmen get no real training on the product,
consumers can't get past queing systems and support people with a menu of
questions and the approriate answers to those only.

The OEMs of the lamps, BTW are not the makers of the sets. There are two
companies, Philips and Osram (Sylvania) and both publish life ratings for
the lamps that the TV makers use when determining the life expectancy in
their product. The problem from a consumer's point of view is that the OEM
part numbers have no relation to those of the manufacturers so the info is
hard to figure out. Some of the lamps are made specifically for a
manufacturer and they may not publish those. This is typically not the
case, as the same lamp can often be found in several products.

The Sony numbers of 8000 hours have been well known for some time. A google
search reveals both this info and the numerous reports of anectdotal
evidence that they don't last this long. A smart consumer would check
things out before buying. A call to any authorized service center for a
product in consideration is a good idea for any buyer. This would yield
this info regarding the available local service, including whether the
servicer is willing to be helpful or not. Any servicer that would not tell
you the life expectancy of a lamp, or find out if you asked, is not the kind
of person you want to be doing business with.

My point is that there is info out there if you look. The fact that it is
not printed where you looked does not mean that it is not available. It
also does not necessarily indicate that manufacturers are trying to hid the
information nor that they don't want to talk about it. How many people
actually pay attention to the info in their manuals anyway? How many make
sure that the system is grounded properly or that they clean the filters
properly, or even know whether there is a filter to be cleaned? A good
dealer will have salespeople that know to educate people on these issues and
prepare consumers for the expected costs of ownership. When one buys from a
warehouse, more of that responsibility falls on the consumer, de facto. It
is the reality of today's market.

Leonard

[Sam Spade]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
How many people
actually pay attention to the info in their manuals anyway?

That's a different issue. The manual is the reasonable and expected
place for the OEM to provide complete information for its product. If
"how many people actually pay attention to the info in the manual..." is
relevant to the manufacturer's decision about manual content then that
doesn't say much about the OEM.

A presales call to a service center is not in the realm of reasonable
consumer investigation. The sources on the Internet regarding consumer
electronics is more an advertising world than meaningful information.

I only knew my set had a bulb that could burn out because a friend had a
similar model and told me before I bought.

I still have no clue about cleaning a filter nor has Sony provided me
any information about that requirement.

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Sam Spade
A presales call to a service center is not in the realm of reasonable
consumer investigation. The sources on the Internet regarding consumer
electronics is more an advertising world than meaningful information.

This is simply not true. I take calls from consumers asking this kind of
question and I am happy to help them. True, most of them are our regualr
clients who are accustomed to our level of service, but I do get calls from
consumers just looking for info. I just called around to the local
appliance servicers regarding washing machines. With some I just got the
service writer who knew nothing and could not speak with a tech. With
others I actually spoke to the guys who service them. The best info seems
to come from the people who both sell and service the products. Of course
you have to fill in the gaps with info from the internet, etc. Some info is
good, most is BS. You have to be diligent and do your homework. I did not
refer to any owner's manuals before buying a product.

Post by Sam Spade
I only knew my set had a bulb that could burn out because a friend had a
similar model and told me before I bought.

That's what you get for buying from a dealer who knows nothing about the
products. If one of our salespeople made a sale this way, or one of our
installers did not advise the client how to clean the filter, if ther is
one, they would get a lecture and an education. You simply did not do your
homework. If you had, you could not miss the fact that lamp life is a big
issue with these sets.

Post by Sam Spade
I still have no clue about cleaning a filter nor has Sony provided me any
information about that requirement.

Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is a
severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters for a
bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog hair,
etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short. The
sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the front,
particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs. There
should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that advises uses
how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That is one of the
reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service perspective.

Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to some
degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself before
making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info that you
need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability and
serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good picture of
the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of digging or a
question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a lot.

Leonard

[Sam Spade]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is a
severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters for a
bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog hair,
etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short. The
sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the front,
particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs. There
should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that advises uses
how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That is one of the
reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to some
degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself before
making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info that you
need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability and
serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good picture of
the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of digging or a
question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a lot.
Leonard

I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.

Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just
plain silly.

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is
a severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters
for a bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog
hair, etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short.
The sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the
front, particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs.
There should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that
advises uses how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That
is one of the reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service
perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to
some degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself
before making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info
that you need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability
and serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good
picture of the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of
digging or a question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a
lot.
Leonard

I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.
Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just plain
silly.

Consumer Reports is a good start, but as you have learned they don't give
the full story. Some things they do well, like testing how well washing
machines wash and consolidating comparison info, but they often miss the
point on complex issues.

My view of how a consumer should proceed is to gather as much information
from as many sources as possible, take each source for what it is worth,
weigh it all against one's personal needs and desires, and make an educated
decision. An important part of that view is to consider the service and
maintenence issues with a given product and take responsibility for the
decsisions made and their consequences. What is silly about any of that?

Leonard

[Jim Cate]

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is
a severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters
for a bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog
hair, etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short.
The sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the
front, particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs.
There should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that
advises uses how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That
is one of the reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service
perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to
some degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself
before making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info
that you need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability
and serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good
picture of the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of
digging or a question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a
lot.
Leonard

I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.
Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just plain
silly.

Consumer Reports is a good start, but as you have learned they don't give
the full story. Some things they do well, like testing how well washing
machines wash and consolidating comparison info, but they often miss the
point on complex issues.
My view of how a consumer should proceed is to gather as much information
from as many sources as possible, take each source for what it is worth,
weigh it all against one's personal needs and desires, and make an educated
decision. An important part of that view is to consider the service and
maintenence issues with a given product and take responsibility for the
decsisions made and their consequences. What is silly about any of that?
Leonard

What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,000 (as an
example), in which a replacement bulb will cost over $350, and in which
the bulb may go out at any time, should at a minimum,warn the purchaser
of that fact UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, IMO. Additionally, the
customer should be told that the warranty (in most instances) doesn't
cover the lamp more than a short period and be given the option to
purchase a product warranty on the lamp, which in most cases he can't,
even if he wants to.

It's simply incredible that you would expect a purchaser of a consumer
item such as this to have to call a service rep or do extensive research
into information available from "many sources," and then make judgments
as to what each is worth, before purchasing such an item. This is
particularly the case since the lamp issues aren't problems most TV's in
use today are subject to and are therefore not generally known to the
public.

FYI, I happen to own a Sanyo Z4 with such a bulb, and I did do my
homework into the lamp issues before buying the unit. Actually, one of
the factors in my decision to go with the Sanyo unit was their recent
offer of an extra bulb with each projector, which, of course, is an
offer not generally available with such purchases. Information about
the lamp costs and the very limited warranty on the lamp WAS NOT easily
ascertained from reading the promotional literature and advertising
brochures on the web or those given to the typical purchaser. An
estimated "lamp life" was included in one of the last pages of an
extensive specification. - Are you saying that consumers should be
expected to read extensive, multi-page specifications of appliances,
electronic gear, etc., and that if they don't, or if they don't
understand their implications, then the manufacturer shouldn't be
responsible for any hidden or unexpected problems or expenses involved
with the unit?

Jim

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Jim Cate

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this
is a severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no
filters for a bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with
dust, dog hair, etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are
coming up short. The sets need filtering and the filters need to be
accessible from the front, particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most
importantly with LCDs. There should be a big tag on the screen when you
open the box that advises uses how to clean them, and on the importance
of doing so. That is one of the reasons that I like single-chip DLP
from a service perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to
some degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself
before making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info
that you need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability
and serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good
picture of the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of
digging or a question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a
lot.
Leonard

I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.
Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just
plain silly.

Consumer Reports is a good start, but as you have learned they don't give
the full story. Some things they do well, like testing how well washing
machines wash and consolidating comparison info, but they often miss the
point on complex issues.
My view of how a consumer should proceed is to gather as much information
from as many sources as possible, take each source for what it is worth,
weigh it all against one's personal needs and desires, and make an
educated decision. An important part of that view is to consider the
service and maintenence issues with a given product and take
responsibility for the decsisions made and their consequences. What is
silly about any of that?
Leonard

What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,000 (as an example),
in which a replacement bulb will cost over $350, and in which the bulb may
go out at any time, should at a minimum,warn the purchaser of that fact
UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, IMO. Additionally, the customer should be
told that the warranty (in most instances) doesn't cover the lamp more
than a short period and be given the option to purchase a product warranty
on the lamp, which in most cases he can't, even if he wants to.
It's simply incredible that you would expect a purchaser of a consumer
item such as this to have to call a service rep or do extensive research
into information available from "many sources," and then make judgments as
to what each is worth, before purchasing such an item. This is
particularly the case since the lamp issues aren't problems most TV's in
use today are subject to and are therefore not generally known to the
public.
FYI, I happen to own a Sanyo Z4 with such a bulb, and I did do my homework
into the lamp issues before buying the unit. Actually, one of the factors
in my decision to go with the Sanyo unit was their recent offer of an
extra bulb with each projector, which, of course, is an offer not
generally available with such purchases. Information about the lamp costs
and the very limited warranty on the lamp WAS NOT easily ascertained from
reading the promotional literature and advertising brochures on the web or
those given to the typical purchaser. An estimated "lamp life" was
included in one of the last pages of an extensive specification. - Are
you saying that consumers should be expected to read extensive, multi-page
specifications of appliances, electronic gear, etc., and that if they
don't, or if they don't understand their implications, then the
manufacturer shouldn't be responsible for any hidden or unexpected
problems or expenses involved with the unit?
Jim

It may be silly to you, but it reflects the reality of the marketplace. As
a dealer, we work hard to make sure that our clients fully understand the
service and maintentence required on the sets that we sell. I am saying
that a consumer should do what it takes to get the information that is
relevant. If that means doing a lot of research so that one can have the
luxury of buying at a low price from warehouses rather than from quality
dealers, then that is the way it is.

The lamp life issue has been well known and debated greatly. Anyone who
does not know that their DLP, LCD, DILA, LCOS, or SXRD projection product
needs a lamp periodically has not done adequate homework and has purchased
from a source that does not deserve their business. I don't defend the
manufacturers with regard to poor information. I have repeatedly veen
critical of most of them and been a consumer advocate in more ways than you
can imagine. That does not change the fact that a good consumers do the
homework until convinced that they understand the product that they are
buying. The market is a viscious one. That is a fact of life. Maybe
people should not HAVE TO do such research, but it is foolish not to.

Leonard

[Jim Cate]

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Jim Cate

Post by Leonard Caillouet

Post by Sam Spade

Post by Leonard Caillouet
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this
is a severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no
filters for a bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with
dust, dog hair, etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are
coming up short. The sets need filtering and the filters need to be
accessible from the front, particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most
importantly with LCDs. There should be a big tag on the screen when you
open the box that advises uses how to clean them, and on the importance
of doing so. That is one of the reasons that I like single-chip DLP
from a service perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to
some degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself
before making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info
that you need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability
and serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good
picture of the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of
digging or a question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a
lot.
Leonard

I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.
Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just
plain silly.

Consumer Reports is a good start, but as you have learned they don't give
the full story. Some things they do well, like testing how well washing
machines wash and consolidating comparison info, but they often miss the
point on complex issues.
My view of how a consumer should proceed is to gather as much information
from as many sources as possible, take each source for what it is worth,
weigh it all against one's personal needs and desires, and make an
educated decision. An important part of that view is to consider the
service and maintenence issues with a given product and take
responsibility for the decsisions made and their consequences. What is
silly about any of that?
Leonard

What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,000 (as an example),
in which a replacement bulb will cost over $350, and in which the bulb may
go out at any time, should at a minimum,warn the purchaser of that fact
UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, IMO. Additionally, the customer should be
told that the warranty (in most instances) doesn't cover the lamp more
than a short period and be given the option to purchase a product warranty
on the lamp, which in most cases he can't, even if he wants to.
It's simply incredible that you would expect a purchaser of a consumer
item such as this to have to call a service rep or do extensive research
into information available from "many sources," and then make judgments as
to what each is worth, before purchasing such an item. This is
particularly the case since the lamp issues aren't problems most TV's in
use today are subject to and are therefore not generally known to the
public.
FYI, I happen to own a Sanyo Z4 with such a bulb, and I did do my homework
into the lamp issues before buying the unit. Actually, one of the factors
in my decision to go with the Sanyo unit was their recent offer of an
extra bulb with each projector, which, of course, is an offer not
generally available with such purchases. Information about the lamp costs
and the very limited warranty on the lamp WAS NOT easily ascertained from
reading the promotional literature and advertising brochures on the web or
those given to the typical purchaser. An estimated "lamp life" was
included in one of the last pages of an extensive specification. - Are
you saying that consumers should be expected to read extensive, multi-page
specifications of appliances, electronic gear, etc., and that if they
don't, or if they don't understand their implications, then the
manufacturer shouldn't be responsible for any hidden or unexpected
problems or expenses involved with the unit?
Jim

It may be silly to you, but it reflects the reality of the marketplace. As
a dealer, we work hard to make sure that our clients fully understand the
service and maintentence required on the sets that we sell. I am saying
that a consumer should do what it takes to get the information that is
relevant. If that means doing a lot of research so that one can have the
luxury of buying at a low price from warehouses rather than from quality
dealers, then that is the way it is.
The lamp life issue has been well known and debated greatly. Anyone who
does not know that their DLP, LCD, DILA, LCOS, or SXRD projection product
needs a lamp periodically has not done adequate homework and has purchased
from a source that does not deserve their business. I don't defend the
manufacturers with regard to poor information. I have repeatedly veen
critical of most of them and been a consumer advocate in more ways than you
can imagine. That does not change the fact that a good consumers do the
homework until convinced that they understand the product that they are
buying. The market is a viscious one. That is a fact of life. Maybe
people should not HAVE TO do such research, but it is foolish not to.
Leonard

So, the market is a viscious [sic] one, and that's a fact of life,
Leanard? Isn't that the kind of argument Firestone and Ford gave about
people being burned to death on their tires and in their SUVs? Isn't
that what the tobacco companies stated when they were fighting the
imposition of warnings on cigarette packs, limits on sales to children,
and other regulations? And earlier, isn't that what the 19th century
work shops said about children working 12 hours per day, and workers
being mutilated and killed because of the lack of effective safety
regulations? Etc., etc., etc.

In case you haven't noticed, in this particular country we have laws and
regulations that protect consumers from misleading advertisement, hidden
defects and costs, etc. For example, we have deceptive trade practice
laws that often include treble damages. - Perhaps things are less
complicated for merchants in other countries, but generally, it seems
that most entrepreneurs like the overall business conditions in the
United States, as compared with third world countries, for example.

I take it that you are a dealer. Obviously, I don't know anything about
your own practices. But let me ask a question. - Do you routinely
explain to your customers that, in addition to costing hundreds of
dollars, not under warranty, and subject to going out at any time, their
projection lamps also will get progressively dimmer over time during
normal use? Mine, for example, is already exhibiting some deterioration
and dimming after only three months of use.

Jim

[Leonard Caillouet]

Post by Jim Cate
So, the market is a viscious [sic] one, and that's a fact of life,
Leanard? Isn't that the kind of argument Firestone and Ford gave about
people being burned to death on their tires and in their SUVs? Isn't that
what the tobacco companies stated when they were fighting the imposition
of warnings on cigarette packs, limits on sales to children, and other
regulations? And earlier, isn't that what the 19th century work shops
said about children working 12 hours per day, and workers being mutilated
and killed because of the lack of effective safety regulations? Etc.,
etc., etc.
In case you haven't noticed, in this particular country we have laws and
regulations that protect consumers from misleading advertisement, hidden
defects and costs, etc. For example, we have deceptive trade practice
laws that often include treble damages. - Perhaps things are less
complicated for merchants in other countries, but generally, it seems that
most entrepreneurs like the overall business conditions in the United
States, as compared with third world countries, for example.
I take it that you are a dealer. Obviously, I don't know anything about
your own practices. But let me ask a question. - Do you routinely explain
to your customers that, in addition to costing hundreds of dollars, not
under warranty, and subject to going out at any time, their projection
lamps also will get progressively dimmer over time during normal use?
Mine, for example, is already exhibiting some deterioration and dimming
after only three months of use.
Jim

I am the service manager for a dealer, yes. We routinely explain to clients
that lamps have an expected average life, but they can go out at any time.
We also point out that lamps typically do not maintain their output at new
levels over the life of the lamp. The get dimmer with time and often just
before failing they drop in brightness considerably. We routinely try to
educate our clients on the advantages and disadvantages of all of the
technologies that we sell so that they are not surprised by what they get
and so that they can make informed decisions. This is why many of our
clients come back and refer others to us, and we very rarely have a
dissatisfied one.

My point, as I said again in the previous post, is not that manufacturers
could not do better, but to inform consumers of the realities of the market.
Again, I have been a consistent critic of manufacturers and their service
policies. My point with regard to lamp life has consistently been that the
life is highly variable, but many people do get longer life from their
lamps. You just don't hear from them because they have no reason to tell
anyone. The information regarding the variability in lamp life is certainly
easily available to anyone who does a little searching. Virtually all of
the forums on the internet that deal with consumer video have threads and
numerous complaints. Telling the previous poster that he is a lousy
consumer for not checking it out before buying a product does not mean that
I condone dangerous and socially destructive practices like child labor,
concealing dangers, or avoiding recalls where they are warranted. The
implication is offensive and demonstrates that you have not read the thread
for context and are more interested in looking for someone to blame vor the
issues you have with your set. Won't fly here.

If you want real information or help with a problem, I will do my best to
provides it. If you want context for understanding issues related to HDTV
or other consumer electronics products I will try to help provide it. If
you want to provoke a debate on an issue I will be happy to debate it, but
stay on topic. The kind of abuses that you describe have little relation to
the lamp issues in current television products. In fact, many manufacturers
who have had problems have taken steps to fix them and to take care of
customers. I know Sony, Panasonic, and Samsumg have all extended warranties
for some customers with repeated problems and changed or modified supplies
in their sets when that was an issue. Samsung even changed suppliers
mid-production when they were having lots of problems. There have been
numerous thread recently in AV and repair forums about Toshiba extending
their lamp warranties. No one is going to be injured nor die from a lamp
failure unless they are doing something that is clearly cautioned against
with the warning labels on the sets and lamps.

If you are having dimming after three months, you obviously have a defective
lamp or ballast. Why have you not had it changed under warranty? We would
deal with this kind of problem right away. There can be consequences for
not doing so. If there is any uneven lighting across the screen you can do
damage to some of the parts in the optical path and can damage LCD panels,
particularly the blue. I jsut changed a lamp in a Sharp that was near
failure and one side was much hotter than the other to the point where the
coating on the glass in front of the lamp was burned. I have seen others
with similar damage to polarizing filters. Left unrepaired, I have seen LCD
panel damage.

Market realities dictate that people have to be smart consumers to protect
themselves. Consumer laws are far from complete and enforcement is often
scattered at best. If you believe that such laws are going to eliminate the
need to do research before buying, you are simply mistaken, or foolish.
What laws are being violated by the TV makers, BTW, with respect to the
marketing of these products? What laws would you suggest?

Leonard

[Jim Cate]

Post by Leonard Caillouet
I am the service manager for a dealer, yes. We routinely explain to clients
that lamps have an expected average life, but they can go out at any time.
We also point out that lamps typically do not maintain their output at new
levels over the life of the lamp. The get dimmer with time and often just
before failing they drop in brightness considerably. We routinely try to
educate our clients on the advantages and disadvantages of all of the
technologies that we sell so that they are not surprised by what they get
and so that they can make informed decisions. This is why many of our
clients come back and refer others to us, and we very rarely have a
dissatisfied one.
My point, as I said again in the previous post, is not that manufacturers
could not do better, but to inform consumers of the realities of the market.
Again, I have been a consistent critic of manufacturers and their service
policies. My point with regard to lamp life has consistently been that the
life is highly variable, but many people do get longer life from their
lamps. You just don't hear from them because they have no reason to tell
anyone. The information regarding the variability in lamp life is certainly
easily available to anyone who does a little searching. Virtually all of
the forums on the internet that deal with consumer video have threads and
numerous complaints. Telling the previous poster that he is a lousy
consumer for not checking it out before buying a product does not mean that
I condone dangerous and socially destructive practices like child labor,
concealing dangers, or avoiding recalls where they are warranted. The
implication is offensive and demonstrates that you have not read the thread
for context and are more interested in looking for someone to blame vor the
issues you have with your set. Won't fly here.
If you want real information or help with a problem, I will do my best to
provides it. If you want context for understanding issues related to HDTV
or other consumer electronics products I will try to help provide it. If
you want to provoke a debate on an issue I will be happy to debate it, but
stay on topic. The kind of abuses that you describe have little relation to
the lamp issues in current television products. In fact, many manufacturers
who have had problems have taken steps to fix them and to take care of
customers. I know Sony, Panasonic, and Samsumg have all extended warranties
for some customers with repeated problems and changed or modified supplies
in their sets when that was an issue. Samsung even changed suppliers
mid-production when they were having lots of problems. There have been
numerous thread recently in AV and repair forums about Toshiba extending
their lamp warranties. No one is going to be injured nor die from a lamp
failure unless they are doing something that is clearly cautioned against
with the warning labels on the sets and lamps.
If you are having dimming after three months, you obviously have a defective
lamp or ballast. Why have you not had it changed under warranty? We would
deal with this kind of problem right away. There can be consequences for
not doing so. If there is any uneven lighting across the screen you can do
damage to some of the parts in the optical path and can damage LCD panels,
particularly the blue. I jsut changed a lamp in a Sharp that was near
failure and one side was much hotter than the other to the point where the
coating on the glass in front of the lamp was burned. I have seen others
with similar damage to polarizing filters. Left unrepaired, I have seen LCD
panel damage.
Market realities dictate that people have to be smart consumers to protect
themselves. Consumer laws are far from complete and enforcement is often
scattered at best. If you believe that such laws are going to eliminate the
need to do research before buying, you are simply mistaken, or foolish.
What laws are being violated by the TV makers, BTW, with respect to the
marketing of these products? What laws would you suggest?
Leonard

Leonard,

From your comments, it sounds like your dealership is doing a good job
of informing your customers of such issues as well as communicating with
the manufacturers about the problems. You are to be commended for such
policies. Obviously, the problems we are speaking of don't compare with
those of people killed in auto accidents, or through smoking cigarettes,
etc. My point was that the caveat emptor arguments of the tobacco and
auto/tire companies were similar to those I see posted on this newsgroup
and others in apparent defense of the projector manufacturers.

My concern is that, on this and similar discussion groups, we "techies"
have become so accustumed to the issue of lamp failures and costs that
we have tended to accept the manufacturers' position in the matter,
forgetting that the general public normally don't follow such
discussions or study lengthy technical specs and descriptions before
purchasing a TV. In my case, the several dealers I spoke with didn't
mention the issue, and the on-line dealerships provided promotional
material about the advantages and features of the projectors along with
lengthy technical specifications (that mentioned expected lamp life,
among many other factors, but not the costs). It was only through
reading comments on the AVS forum for several weeks that the extent of
the potential problems and the exceptions to warranty coverage became
apparent.

On a positive note, I have been pleased with the performance of my
Sanyo Z4 LCD projector, and my replacement bulb arrived in the mail today.

Jim

[Dave Clary]

Color me a consumer who probably didn't do enough research. I bought
a Sharp DLP and I absolutely love it, but after doing a little
Googling for a replacement lamp, I'm not looking forward to the day I
need to make that purchase!

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx
Home: http://davidclary.com
Kinky for Texas Gov
"Why The Hell Not"

[~P~]

Anyone making a multi-thousand dollar purchase of any type who doesn't do
research is an idiot - plain and simple. You should research at least a bit
for every $100+ purchase you make. A lawn mower, your vacumn, your MP3
player, your new hot-tub, etc., etc.

If you know nothing about the technology, then there are SO many ways to
find out these days it is amazing and wonderful websites and newsgroups like
this one can help steer people in the right direction.

Did YUGO advertise that having a minor bump in the car would cause more
damage than the car was worth? Of course not! According to your philosophy
they should have though.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it would be great if all manufacturers of
ALL products were required to be upfront about every single little thing
that you may, or may not, have to deal with on any product you purchase.
But, this is not required by law and people want to SELL you their products,
not discourage you from buying them.

I recently sat down with a high-end projection company and one of the things
they said was that their 24/7 DLP projectors had a service kit that should
be installed every 18 months. It included all new fans and a new color
wheel for the projectors. About $5,000 in parts, and this was a REGULAR
repair item for that type of environment.

Does anyone here even know that DLP color wheels are a 'regular' maintenance
item, or that the fans on projectors may be regular maintenance items?
Should it be disclosed?

Almost all items that cost $1,000 or more require some sort of regular
maintenance and upkeep to keep them running their best and I believe that
the burden ENTIRELY falls on the customer to ask those questions prior to
making their purchase or it is the buyers fault - not the manufacturers
fault.

Do you disagree? Quite clearly - but where is the line drawn for you? What
do you deal with every day that you would not want people to know the
'issues' that may arrise with the product? I deal with hundreds of
different A/V components every day - all of them can have overheating
issues, fan issues, buggy software, etc. There is no way to honestly
portray every possible failure and the KNOWN issues are soemthing worth
asking about ahead of time or doing 5 minutes of research on.

Spend $1,000 or more with zero research... that's just lunacy!

Post by Jim Cate
What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,000 (as an
example), in which a replacement bulb will cost over $350, and in which
the bulb may go out at any time, should at a minimum,warn the purchaser
of that fact UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, IMO.